Ven. Thubten Lhamo offering puja.

The French nun Ven. Thubten Lhamo took refuge at Kopan Monastery in Nepal with Lama Thubten Yeshe in December 1979. She was ordained at Kopan in April 2017, on her sixty-sixth birthday. On November 13, 2017, under Lama Zopa Rinpoche’s advice, she started a three-year Vajrayogini retreat at Thakpa Kachoe Retreat Land in France. To conclude the retreat, Ven. Lhamo had to do fire pujas, which were done with the advice of Geshe Tenzin Loden, the resident geshe at Institut Vajra Yogini (IVY) in France. It took her four months to prepare for doing these pujas at IVY and four additional months to complete them, which happened in July 2021. As we publish this interview, Ven. Lhamo is in the Pyrenees finishing some commitments and doing more retreat.

As she was doing the fire pujas, Nicolas Brun, director of IVY, sat down with Ven. Lhamo to talk about the retreat. She shared that it does not feel appropriate to her to call it “her retreat” since so many people helped her with it. This reflection of her humble and sincere approach to practice runs throughout this interview. Please note that this interview was done in English although French is Ven. Lhamo’s first language. We are so pleased to share it with you. May it be the source of incredible inspiration for your own practice and retreat aspirations!

Offerings at Thakpa Kachoe Retreat Land, France.

The Interview

Nicolas Brun: How did you decide to do three-year retreat? It is a large undertaking. What motivated you to do it?

Ven. Lhamo: So, I did not decide. I asked Lama Zopa Rinpoche for advice because I have made so many mistakes. There were many things to do. The advice was written: “three-year retreat.” I thought it was a preliminary practice. I didn’t understand. And then when I stopped working, I asked Rinpoche about this retreat, and he told me, “Vajrayogini retreat.” That’s the way it happened. 

How long did it take to prepare to go into retreat? What are the preparations you made?

It took me a long time because when you do retreat you have to do nine preliminaries. Some preliminaries I had done before, but some I had not done. It took me, maybe … two years? More than one year. So I did them at different places—Osel Ling, my house, Institut Vajra Yogini, Nepal, Bodhgaya. I received help from Holly [Ansett] to know what all these preliminaries were because, again, I didn’t know anything about this. It was very funny, you know, I had no information about all this. So the main thing was this preparation.

Beautiful surroundings at Thakpa Kachoe Retreat Land.

Describe what an average day was like during the three-year retreat. What was your environment like?

For me it’s not easy to wake up early in the morning, so I woke up at 6:20 A.M. and would start quite late. But I felt okay doing like this. I was doing four sessions a day, maybe two hours each, and finishing later in the evening. I think it was okay for me to do like this. The main thing was to do the four sessions. Except sometimes when I was very tired, I would do three or even one when I was exhausted. But I kept doing my four sessions most of the time. I also had to do my normal practice. I had to cook. I went for a walk every day at lunch time because I was in a very beautiful place in the mountains, and I think for me this was a very good habit because I needed space, you know. The forest was beautiful, and there were animals. It was a good way to relax.

What advice was important to you during this retreat?

I was doing what Lama Zopa asked me to do. This was very important because most of the time I felt that I don’t understand anything, I’m unqualified, my mind is unsubdued. The only thing I had was Rinpoche told me to do this retreat. That was the only thing that could keep me there on my cushion. He knows why I am doing this. But I don’t remember that he gave me special advice. Maybe I would have needed more advice, but maybe I didn’t know how to ask for it, I don’t know. This could maybe have to come from me, but I didn’t ask Rinpoche.

For other people, I think it might be really nice if you have someone who can really help you when you feel bad. And at some point Geshe-la [Geshe Loden] here helped me, but more for practical questions like how to do the fire pujas and things like this.

But what was going on inside, I had to cope with it. I didn’t feel helpless, but maybe that’s the job to do.

Ven. Lhamo at Thakpa Kachoe Retreat Land, France.

What was the most difficult part of doing the three year retreat? Did you ever think about giving up?

It was difficult just to be with myself. This is always difficult because you face your mind all day long. You cannot escape. You have to cope with it and face it.

I didn’t think to give up, I don’t think so. But I was desperate, I cried a lot. I had many wounds inside. But I could see that everybody has, so that gives me more compassion for people. When I do funny things or bad things, it is because I have this wound that is not cured. But my challenge was not to get hypnotized by my wounds, but to go very deep inside the wound because then at some point it’s like it disappears. I had this experience. I didn’t think to give up because I said, “Yes, I will do.”

Were there other difficult things other than being with yourself?

Sometimes you can be sick. I became very thin during my retreat. I had problems with the liver, pain all night. And to cope with this, the main thing is the mind.

You have to accept yourself and learn to love yourself. I considered that if I don’t love myself, then I cannot love anyone because then I will pretend I love others just to gain a good feeling or to look nicer or to have a reputation or things like this. I could see it was a duty to love myself. And I wrote, “I have to love myself even when I don’t love myself.” And maybe this is the main thing I have learned. I mean, I am not finished learning this.

Because then, all of the practice is twisted, and I had this question all the time, “Where is the practice? What is the practice?” I had this question and I still have this question. It’s like you have questions, and you just follow something, and the questions are more important than the answers. This is the feeling I have; it is a process—“Where is the practice? Who am I? Who is practicing?”—because I didn’t want to just pretend. 

Some of the animals of Thakpa Kachoe Retreat Land, France. Photo courtesy of Thakpa Kachoe Retreat Land.

What was the most pleasurable part of doing the retreat?

It was not coming from my practice. [Laughter.] The pleasurable part was to go outside in the woods and to see the animals, and I met the people living there, very simple people. It helped me a lot because I talked with them, not much, but yes I talked. They knew I was in retreat, but I didn’t talk about my retreat. I like people like this. No big words, no big complicated Buddhist world.

Sometimes I felt good, and I followed the advice of Lama Yeshe. Lama Yeshe said to write down things. So I had on my table a small booklet, and especially in the morning I wrote many things. 

So you had the advice to have a little booklet for writing down notes during the retreat?

Yes, when the thought comes, write it down because some seconds after, it’s finished. So you have to write it down when it comes. It used to come during my first session in the morning. I started and then I write. It was the best time to write. Have it ready to write in, so you don’t have to look for anything.

Do you read through the booklet again sometimes?

I am sometimes surprised what I wrote. Sometimes nice things, yes. So it’s just like a glimpse of something.

What was the most significant thing you learned in the retreat?

What I said before, to love myself. Then, at some point, I don’t know why I had this feeling that good or bad is the same—feeling good, feeling bad is the same. I had this feeling when I finished my retreat. I lost it now.

Thakpa Kachoe Retreat Land, France. Photo courtesy of Thakpa Kachoe Retreat Land.

You noticed after the retreat there was a little bit of equanimity?

I have no name [for it]. I have this feeling to go somewhere I have no name. I cannot say. Just, to love oneself. Because it’s not me, me, me. Because you can be fascinated by this. It’s just to love yourself, kind of, at the same time detached. I had this feeling that really, this was necessary. And that [there are these questions about] the practice—Where is the practice? Where is the real point? You have to [do this] work, you know? Because I can pretend, which I did before. I did pretend I was a holy being [laughs]. Then I made so many mistakes. So, yeah, Where is the practice? What is the practice? What does it mean really?

What advice do you have for others who are considering doing a long retreat?

I would like to say first that I am a very ordinary being. That means, anybody could do this retreat. Because I am just nobody special. I could do this retreat because so many people helped me all the time. So I had this feeling that it’s not my retreat.

When you feel bad, when you feel lost, at least you remember, “my guru told me to do this.” At least I had this.

Of course, to prepare the material things is so important. Like your papers [such as mail], medicine, health, teeth, what to eat. So with these things you have to be very well organized and have different solutions if things change. People can die. People can get sick. So be very clear about all this.

And then, if you are sick, what do you do? Do you go to see a doctor? Are you going to stay in your house? So I think maybe something has to be done about the caretaker. To help them to know what to do. Because when I was sick, it was difficult, and it’s like, I had to really be sure that I was sick, you know. To allow myself to go to the doctor. I waited until really I couldn’t cope with it. I went to the doctor, and one time to the dentist also.

So the caretakers, it would be important that the caretakers have training or maybe advice about how to help people during retreat because sometimes you have to make big decisions.

Yes, like to go to the doctor, I was not sure if I could wait. Do I have to go or not? I didn’t know, so that was difficult. And you have to think about what to do if people die. Because, of course, some people can die. You have to prepare to separate from your family. For me to separate from my grandson was most difficult. 

Do you have any more advice?

Not to wait to be too old. You need energy and to be in good health. Because, of course, if you have pain, it is difficult. You have to know your limits and to know what you need. And for me, I had pain in the knees. But I couldn’t go see a physical therapist. I can go once to the doctor, but I cannot go every week to see them. So then, okay, you have to cope with your pain. 

Ven. Lhamo (center) with Geshe Loden and Nicolas Brun, Institut Vajra Yogini, France.

You are doing fire pujas to complete the retreat. How long will that last?

About the fire pujas, I didn’t know anything because you cannot know everything before starting, there are too many things to know. So then you learn little by little. When I asked Lama Zopa Rinpoche he told me to ask Geshe Loden at Institut Vajra Yogni. So then Geshe Loden spoke about making pills, 650,000 pills. Then, I had to buy a machine in China to make pills. So then, that was very difficult. But, what was nice is that many people helped me to make these pills. And during the process we learned a lot. Sometimes we were desperate during the retreat because the machine was not working. Then it was very friendly and very joyful at the same time—the feeling to help each other and do something nice. Actually it was a very good experience. So when we finished it was, “Oh! Finished!” But it is not finished because now I have to burn all of these pills. So to burn I think it will take maybe three months. Something like this.

What do you have planned for what comes next?

I don’t know what I will do next. Maybe I will go to Dorje Pamo Nunnery. I will ask Rinpoche’s advice. This is the main thing. I will offer what I intend to do, and I will ask his advice because I don’t know.

And I still have more retreats to do anyway, all the other retreats. But when I was doing the three-year retreat, I had the feeling that my life now is retreat. I didn’t have the feeling that I will finish now. It’s not that I mediate, I am not a meditator. And if I did this retreat I think it is because I am lazy, I have no discipline. So I need something strong, and then I do.

I hope you are able to find another strong project.

I will see what Lama Zopa Rinpoche says. Really, I feel him a lot. And this place, this place in the Alps, is a very nice place. Because as soon as you go outside, you have this big, big space and it’s beautiful. So this helped a lot.

Billions of Thanks from Lama Zopa Rinpoche

After the retreat, Lama Zopa Rinpoche wrote a letter to Ven. Lhamo, including the following:

Lama Zopa Rinpoche at Kopan Monastery, Nepal, November 2020. Photo by Ven. Lobsang Sherab.

Billions of thank yous for finishing this retreat … so inspiring! And great that Geshe-la was able to help so it was clear for you.

Numberless thanks for doing the retreat and dedicating the life to sentient beings, following His Holiness’ wishes and Lama Yeshe, and that you were able to complete with Geshe-la’s help—as he did two three-year retreats himself—so fortunate! I am sure Vajrayogini is blissed out and extremely pleased. Now you’re ready to go to the pure land. Now in the world there are so many problems with the pandemic, environment, etc. Now you can go to Vajrayogini pure land and there you can become enlightened very quickly, much quicker than in Amitabha pure land, as it takes more than one life there.

This is great inspiration in the world for others to do the three-year retreat of Vajrayogini.

More Advice and Reflection from Ven. Lhamo

In addition to what Ven. Lhamo said about the retreat in her interview, she also wanted to share the following with students thinking about engaging in retreat:

Ven. Lhamo doing puja

• Know yourself with honesty before starting.
• Have a schedule that you can keep according to your capacities and preferences, but have a clear structure and rhythm.
• Have a mentor with whom you can communicate, receive help, and clarify what you are doing and what is happening involving inner work and practical issues.
• Receive the blessing of your teacher, sometimes it is the only “thing” you have to continue.
• Solitude makes you discover and perceive new things. You go through death and craziness. It is not an intellectual reflection but a practical living experience.
• You can sing the practice, listen to audio.
• Do practical work like painting and making things.

Ven. Lhamo said, “When I finished, my first thought was, ‘This was a preparation. I would like to do the real retreat.’ To finish is not easy. … And I really don’t know what I will do after.”

Ven. Lhamo also wishes to sincerely thank the many people who helped her, including sending offerings on her behalf, helping her with the fire pujas, and preparing the pills needed for the fire pujas.

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You can learn more about Thakpa Kachoe Tibetan Buddhist Retreat Land: www.thakpakachoe.org